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- - By Denkko (**) [us] Date 2011-12-04 18:49
Is it possible for the new Rybka 5 engine, to overcome the power of Houdini 2.0? In my personal opinion I think it is very possible. 
I am sure we all waiting for the new Rykba engine to make its comeback real soon. Houdini, be afraid, be very afraid...
:smile:
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2011-12-05 00:17
Until Vas posts something about Rybka 5 here on this forum I cannot consider its existence more than a fable.
Parent - By Labyrinth (*****) [us] Date 2011-12-05 12:04
January 2011 :-P

Old enough that it remains a fable for me :razz:
Parent - - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2011-12-05 15:46
If R5 is launched in June 2012 then there will probably be another Houdini to beat!  :smile:
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) [de] Date 2011-12-05 18:08
After having seen, that Houdini 2.0 could grew only a very small amount, I'm very curious whether Robert is really able to give Houdini a further noticeable push. What can he create by himself?

Rybka?
OK, the R2.3->R3-Jump was astonishing. The R3->R4-Step was much smaller. I'm curious what Vas can create with R5 too. Even if he hadn't created all he sold, he surely gave us the prove that he was able to produce great progresses.

But perhaps future belongs to the Critter- and Komodo-people, :cool:
or somebody who takes Stockfish (naming it 'Stockfish 3', or calling it 'MyChessEngine', hiding the code and declaring "No, I have have coded it all by myself!!" :evil: )

Quap
Parent - - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2011-12-11 09:21
If your engine has enough over the competition to allow you to focus on adding other features why wouldn't you?  Even if My Houdart discovered some areas where strength gains could be made, why land them in to a product that already has enough of a gap between itself and the competition?

Which is more disheartening for the opposition; (a) increase the gap now and let others find ways to close the gap delaying their next release (b) allow other to close the gap and as soon as they do launch a new H2.1 or H3 placing another gap between H and others.  I suspect you will find it is (b).  This is not to say Mr Houdart has discovered strength gains that he is holding back but I for one would not discount this as a possibility.  I liken this strategy as a good demoralising tactic used very often in the realms of sport or other competitive situations.  The other advantage of (b) of course is it is far more commercially rewarding; by launching another version with a claimed ELO gain will reap more income; especially nice where most of the gains came from discoveries made in earlier developments!  Something that you will see play out in Formula 1 very often.
Parent - By sarciness (***) [cn] Date 2011-12-14 04:47
Interesting theory. My guess is that this isn't the case for Houdini, but we shall see! Would be kinda cool if that happened!
Parent - By Kapaun (****) [de] Date 2011-12-07 15:05
Perhaps, though I doubt it. But the point is that H2.0 won't be the latest Houdini by the time R5 shows up.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2011-12-07 18:06
Don, the author of Komodo seems to think there is still around 1000 ELO to be gained by engines.  That is a mind boggling number and I am not so sure it is accurate.  I have no doubt that Vas has a Rybka that can run circles against any engine out there, but wanting to release it to the public is a totally different issue.  If you look at how fast Houdini was quickly RE, then you really can't blame Vas to not want to have to go through another Ippo debacle.  The best possible scenario for us is if a secure hardware card is possible to port an engine to.  That would be great as it would give us the best possible engine strength while still keeping the code safe.
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-09 01:43
you forgot that vas was found guilty for taking code from fruit (crafty and others).
So vas, is really the least one who can complain about that. Anyway nobody every saw his source code, even he needs to make rybka open source if he uses anything from fruit or other engines under gpl license.

I can just give you a good statement that seems to be true:
"the stealer is afraid of being stolen by others".

A lot of people took advantage from the source of fruit and crafty.
You will notice that after fruit was made open source suddently a lot of engines improved with a lot of hundreds of elos. One of them was rybka. Many took advantage of fruit, but very less people gave something back. Most of them gave even not a "thank you" to the creator of fruit, because they want to hide the major impact of the fruit source code, so that they appear more likey genius, like they invented everything by themselfs.

It seems I can cite einstein here:
"being creative, means, knowing how to hide your source very good".

The real heroes of computer chess are the autors of fruit and crafty. Their source-code contributed a lot to the current state of computer chess.

-------------------------------
We all are learning from others (for example from books), and if we accept to take/use the knowledge of somebody else (e.g. the autor o the book), then in the case that we make some progress, we should publish it.
In a better world anyone that takes something, would know that one day he will also have to give something back, and not just taking from everybody and never giving something back. Just because being in love with $$.

If you have at least a bar mininum of morality you acknowledge your sources, and dont try to minimalize their influence like vas did. (i remember he was saying that the fruti code brought him just little, i think he said something around 5-20 elo).

And related to houdini.
You remember the time when your posts have been delated (and you have been told that you will be banned from here) just because of writing "h*****i" here. Now vas is making advertising houdini.
You notice that power of $$ ?

The  creator of houdini at the beginnings of houdini wrote on his site, that houdini is strongly based on ippolite (open source) ... and also influenced by fruit....
Well, where is the source then? He is just making money with houdini, and vilating the gpl license.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-09 01:48

> Anyway nobody every saw his source code


Nobody ever saw the Fruit source code Vas was supposedly accused of having copied! :wink:
Parent - By suj (***) Date 2011-12-09 11:40
going around in circles....thats computer chess right now
Parent - - By Stonehenge (***) Date 2011-12-09 10:53

> The  creator of houdini at the beginnings of houdini wrote on his site, that houdini is strongly based on ippolite (open source) ... and also influenced by fruit....
> Well, where is the source then? He is just making money with houdini, and vilating the gpl license.


Get your facts right.
1) The important influence of Ippolit and Stockfish is still acknowledged on the Houdini web site, check it out, it's been there for 18 months.
2) Houdini has got nothing to do with Fruit. Zero, zilch, nada.
3) Houdini does not contain any third-party code other than the EGTB access code, and does not violate any software license - GPL or other.
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-09 13:27
perhaps you dont know that ippolit is based on fruit?
When they have been accused of using rykba-code, they said, that in fact, there are using idea/code from fruit.

yes, at least robert gives a small acknowledge to ippolit but he says "ideas" minimizing the importance, while I guess nobody is thinking that he didnt take any code from there. (Like "magic-constants"). He writes that he took ideas from ippolit, but i think at the beginning of houdini he wrote that it was very much based on ippolit and by then he mentionated also fruit.
I think (but i'm not sure) initially he even said, that he holds the source for a while closed, till he cleans it up, and that he would later deliver the source code.
Parent - - By Stonehenge (***) Date 2011-12-09 14:28

> perhaps you dont know that ippolit is based on fruit?


I don't know and don't accept that.
Please demonstrate that Ippolit is based on Fruit. This should be very easy, Ippolit and Fruit sources are freely available.

> He writes that he took ideas from ippolit, but i think at the beginning of houdini he wrote that it was very much based on ippolit and by then he mentionated also fruit.


Please show a reference to this, AFAIK the Houdini author has never written anything about Fruit.

So many claims that are not supported by any evidence: "I think (but I'm not sure)...", "...I guess that...", "...they said that...", "...I think he wrote..."
Internet forums at their best.
Parent - - By sockmonkey (***) [de] Date 2011-12-09 14:39

> So many claims that are not supported by any evidence: "I think (but I'm not sure)...", "...I guess that...", "...they said that...", "...I think he wrote..."


I am 100% sure, without a single shred of doubt, that Houdini is based on Ippolit/Robbolito. Here's some evidence.

http://open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=992
http://open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?p=14724#p14724

> AFAIK the Houdini author has never written anything about Fruit


You're funny when you use the royal 'we' and/or talk about yourself in the 3rd person, Robert.

Jeremy
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2011-12-09 15:18

> I am 100% sure, without a single shred of doubt, that Houdini is based on Ippolit/Robbolito. Here's some evidence.


They are not talking about Ippolit/RobboLito. They are talking about Fruit. BTW, see what Robert said on his website about Houdini. All it's very clear:

''Without many ideas and techniques from the open source chess engines Ippolit and Stockfish, Houdini would not nearly be as strong as it is now''.

Robert is a genius. He improve the Ippolit code using his own ideas more than everybody until date. He added many Elo points to the spectacular Houdini and have deserved the first place with elegance. I hope he will continue improving the great code of Houdini.
His work on Houdini is simply spectacular.

Regards,
Gaмßito.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2011-12-10 22:26 Edited 2011-12-10 22:28
Oh shut up Robert already!! What is it that you're trying to prove here? This is a polite forum, therefore, you are being treated politely. That doesn't mean we're stupid all of a sudden. You've optimized an engine that is Rybka clone, and you get your credit for that. But that's the only credit you're gonna get. You've given away this optimized version (H1.5) for free, as if trying to show us all just how nice guy you are, and you're not in this for money. Than, you come with H2 which is no better than H1.5 (of course, as you're not able to put anything realy chessy in it, and optimization can only go that far), ask for people to buy it, again showing yourself as turbo nice guy giving people the opportunity to donate to UNICEF (Houdini cares for the children of the world, yeah, sure.). You make me sick, somewhere in the range of the Robert Hyatt.

Edit: for the record, I've never used a single second of H1.5 or H2, out of pure despise.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-12-10 23:21
:smile:
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) [us] Date 2011-12-11 10:45

> Edit: for the record, I've never used a single second of H1.5 or H2, out of pure despise.


Lies! You say untruthful hurtful things. It's common sense that you used and have H1.5 at least.

If H1.0 is based off Ippolit then what does that have to do with H2.0? H2.0 could be free of all ippolit code as why it's for sale.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-11 15:23
More to the point, this forum would not be hosting or developing a Houdini Aquarium if it contained any Rybka code. We need to put this all into perspective and move on.
Parent - - By sockmonkey (***) [de] Date 2011-12-11 15:34
Circular logic
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-11 15:40
I gave up caring  what you thought a long time ago!:wink:
Parent - - By bob (Gold) [us] Date 2011-12-12 16:38
Then you should try introspection.   His point was absolutely valid.  You REALLY believe that Houdart rewrote H1.5 in a few months to create a brand new 2.0 that is totally clean?  All the testing?  All the tuning?  The parallel search debugging?  All was done from scratch?  REALLY?

If you want to use the program, feel free.  But it IS a derivative of ip/robo/etc...
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-12 16:55
Bob, your opinions I stopped considering a very long time ago!:grin:
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-12 17:36
That behaviour tells a lot about your intelligence.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-12 17:54
And who are but another comic book sidekick of Avenger Bob Hyatt come to avenge Ippolit? eh!
Parent - - By bob (Gold) [us] Date 2011-12-13 16:35
If so, why do you respond to them.  Somewhat contradictory, eh???
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 17:02
:razz:
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-12 16:59 Edited 2011-12-12 17:36
Move on Bob! Stop being a petulant, hostile obstructionists! [edit] Houdini is here -you and a few of your cronies want to push back the waters of time and go back to when the ICGA was on top of its game, before the ICGA got ahead of itself and acted out the archetypal role of  arch avenger, super heroes of the computer chess world,  and stupidly, in the most  comic book of  attempts went after  a top chess computer programmer with inconclusive data that was highly interpretive and used that data in the most highhanded manner to smear him.
Parent - - By bob (Gold) [us] Date 2011-12-13 16:35
I have no problem with Houdini being "here".  I simply want everyone to realize what it is, and isn't.  particularly, that it ISN'T a new and original program.  Use it all you want.  We didn't "go after a top computer chess programmer."  We simply exposed a significant case of cheating along with a potential GPL/copyright violation to boot...  Nothing more, nothing less.  The data is not "inconclusive" unless one is incapable of interpreting the data and understanding it.  If you can't do that, ANYTHING is "inconclusive" as you can't draw a conclusion if you don't understand.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 17:02
:razz:
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-12 17:23
What a logic. With what kind of set-theory/logic  did you derive that statement?

Is it not possible, that gets a "cash" for advertising houdini? Or do you think vas does it for free? You still didnt realize that for vas the $$ matters?
How do you think Vas came suddently to the conclusion that houdini does not contain any single code of rybka, when he fighted a lot against houdini saying that it is an improved clone of rybka. Now suddently you think that he things that houdini doesnt have any single line of code (or parameter) of rybka?

How it is possible that you have such a "blind logic"? If you would be winning something (like money) for distributing such ideas, i would understand your behaviour, but otherwise I have no explanation. Even a normal child, would not come to such a conclusion, that suddently vas is convinced that houdini is pure of any rybka/ippolite code.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-12 18:07
Comrade! It is time to give it up and move on!:lol:
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-13 00:11
i dont understand you at all. Why do you think i should move on? Why shouldn't you move on? :-)

To understand your behaviour i would have two more quesitons:
1) Do you get money related to rybka/houdini? Do you have any kind of material benefits?
2) Did you ever wrote your own chess engine, doing everything from scratch?

I ask that because, i think it will help me to better estimate/evaluate  your statements.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 01:38 Edited 2011-12-13 02:42
:yell::lol:

I'm for giving the guy a clean slate and letting live and let live. Move on. If Ippolit can find its way into the light of day-more power to them. There is nothing mystical here.

[edit] As long as Houdini has been found acceptable to be incorporated into Aquarium GUI and hosted here on the Rybka forum, Robert Houdart will have my full support. That is the way it stands.
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-13 10:20
Well, I asked you something completeley different, to be able to estimate/evaluate your statements in this forum. See above point 1 and point 2. The answer can be very short , like that:
1) yes/no
2) yes/no

You need just 2 words, and i can already evaluate better your statements.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 14:00 Edited 2011-12-13 15:26
Of course I don't get any money ! What is your issue? [edit] Let me help you out here, with all I have posted you still don't want it to sink in!

Per Robert Houdart Houdini 2. has no Rybka code in its program. Convekta is good with that -Rybka  forum, that is hosting Houdini Aquarium is good with that- Vas is willing to play against Houdini.

The only nay Sayers to this are those tied in with the Ippolit faction. Which, by the way,  has questionable beginnings themselves (  understatement ). The ICGA with Bob Hyatt and his little group of vigilantes. 

All other reactions are based on the initial first emergence of Houdini as a clone, which they never got over it. But guess what! Some how it transcended its own beginnings , by virtue of its topping the charts and remaining their to this day. The rating systems had to acknowledge the supremacy of Houdini- now, the commercial markets are seeing it.

It is sour grapes to a whole lot of folks-no doubt.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 15:49 Edited 2011-12-13 16:00
Do you want to talk about the Ippolit coup? Reversing engineering of Rybka -cleaning up and positing the now cleaned up chess engine as Ippolit  in open source. What a coup! Having Hyatt run around saying the, "cats out of the bag"-no doubt smiling like a Cheshire cat.

No wonder Ippolit,  Hyatt and guys like you hate Houdini! eh!

Now, Ippolit will have to go through the whole process all over again!:yell:
Parent - - By bob (Gold) [us] Date 2011-12-13 17:31
it is pretty funny, and pretty revealing.  ippolit is a dirty word to you.  Yet Houdini is a DIRECT descendent of ip* and it is "ok".

Logical.  Very logical.

And revealing, too...
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 17:35 Edited 2011-12-13 17:40
Bugs you doesn't it.:wink: You really thought you could have it both ways , didn't you! It must really irk you and Ippolit that Houdini slipped through and made it commercially. :yell::lol:
Parent - - By bob (Gold) [us] Date 2011-12-13 17:44
Not trying to have ANYTHING "both ways.  Houdini is an ip* clone.  If he gets away with selling it, and you are willing to buy it, that's his choice, and yours.  There are plenty of places you can buy counterfeit merchandise.  And there are plenty of people willing to do so.  Says much more about THEM than the product, of course...
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 17:50
Sounds like sour grapes to me!
Parent - By bob (Gold) [us] Date 2011-12-13 23:04
Everything sounds like sour grapes if you don't understand the topic...
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-13 20:15
it seems you have indeed a problem with understand what I'm asking:

instead of writing "two words" (yes/no) you write an roman, and you manage to answer just to one quesiton :P.

so, there is still the question left: Did you write your own chess engine from scratch? (and how much c/c++ exprience do you have?)
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-12-13 22:45 Edited 2011-12-13 22:49
No! You have a problem- read my posts and you'll get all your answers. Feel free to carry on in a monologue fashion- be rhetorical as hell and knock yourself out.
Parent - - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-14 18:57
Sorry, but so far, I dont see a clear answer to the question:
Did you ever write your own chess-engine from scratch? (And how much c/c++/assembler  experience do you have? That question is optional)

It's easy to answer: you need to answer just with yes or no.

You dont need to write an roman, one single word is enough: yes or no?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-12-14 19:07
Believe it or not, writing a chess engine isn't really a requirement for understanding software copyright and licensing issues.
Parent - By cipri (**) [de] Date 2011-12-14 20:59
I didnt  say. I just put a question. And perhaps I will get an answer
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